Curse

Shriketalon · Feb 21, 2011, 06:32 PM // 18:32

With the Dervish update finally out, and things cooling down just a bit, it's time to take stock of Ye Olde State of the PvE Game, as far as balance is concerned. Therefore, I thought I'd present a simple question to the community as a whole.

What do you think needs balance now?

It could be a profession you believe to be underpowered or lackluster in general play. It might be an attribute line that simply doesn't present anything worthwhile to the game, or a playstyle that you'd like to see be more viable. Or it could simply be a single skill or a primary attribute that could use a bit of tweaking.

At this point in the game, what are your thoughts?

My own personal ramblings of no consequence to follow.

Shriketalon · Feb 21, 2011, 06:32 PM // 18:32

The Ranger.
All alone in the wilderness.

The Ranger has a simple problem. There is nothing he can contribute to the party that another profession can't do better. Bow attacks are weak, pets are awkward and underpowered, nature spirits do a magnificent job at making your enemy kill your allies better or contribute so little that they aren't worth a skillslot, traps are only good for absurdly slow, niche play, and the limit to a single stance and a single preparation is vastly inferior to the way other professions can stack enchantments,

Every role that the Ranger is supposed to fill is accomplished better by someone else. If you want area damage, a Crit Barrager is a better choice. If you want an Interrupter, Panic or Migraine run circles around Broad Head Arrow or Magebane Shot. If you want an NPC bodyblocker, spamming minions, spirits, or summons is far superior to bringing fluffy. If you want party-wide buffs, don't even think about those pathetic nature spirits, because they are either so worthless that there's no reason to add the slot, or they will help your hundred foes more than your seven friends. And if you want to inflict conditions, tough luck, because all the afflictions actually worthwhile in PvE are beyond the Ranger's reach, or done far more cheaply through other means.

Now, I'd personally love to call for a complete overhaul of this class, but seeing how the Dervish took nine months, that's not exactly viable. Fortunately, a better way already exists.

Use Kieran Thackery's bar from Hearts of the North as inspiration for a better Ranger.

-Duel purpose skills, one consistent ability, one situational effect.
-Chains that allow the Ranger to access important conditions like Deep Wound and Cracked Armor.
-Create a Marked mechanic using the Assassin attack chain code to let the Ranger set up high impact shots.
-Give him abilities that buff his own mechanics that are neither Stances nor Preparations.
-Link more abilities to Expertise, or split the primary in PvE to actually improve the class's potency.
-Provide more contingency abilities with area effects.
-Craft a few useful support skills that actually aid the party, and are cast in a reasonable time frame.

Make the Ranger actually think about tactics, rather than spamming the Barrage key over and over and over again. Reward those clever tactics with reasonable damage, useful conditions, and occasional spikes for precise shooting. Give pets and bow attacks actual synergy rather than having pet builds rely on melee weapons. Reduce nature spirit casting time and recharge, and give them abilities that actual help (I'm looking at you, Equinox. You are bad, and whoever coded you should feel bad!) the party. And consider making traps viable in single play somehow, but solve the basics first.

The Elementalist
Can't start a fire without a spark.

The other big contender for a serious balance update, but actually a little easier to redo. The Elementalist's problem is also simple. They cause damage, elemental damage in particular. Elemental damage is reduced by armor, Chaos, Holy, Dark, and Untyped damage are not. In Hard Mode, where they enemies have very high armor, the iconic nuker profession's nukes are nullified, while the damage of most other casters is not.

Secondly, Elementalists have to do way too much to get way too little. A mediocre Ele setup requires high Energy Storage to give you enough power in the first five seconds of combat to cast all your buffs and still afford your skills, passive energy management skills to keep the ether flowing (because E.Storage stops contributing jack after the aforementioned first five seconds), boost skills to make your armor-impeded damage actually deal any harm whatsoever, and usually a glyph devoted to active energy management or active boosting. That's half your bar, a good portion of your attributes, and several seconds of setup time, and you haven't even cast a single damage spell yet. Meanwhile, other professions have excellent damage skills that they can fire and forget thanks to armor-ignoring damage, allowing them to fit in other abilities, useful PvE skills, or echo their own superior skills.

Fortunately, changing the ele is fairly easy.

- Reduce the energy pool of E.Storage slightly via split, and give it an Attunement functionality, returning a bit of energy for every elemental spell cast.
- Make the Attunements pure Skills, and give them armor penetration instead of energy.
- Tweak casting times, recharges, and skill costs to make the ele competitive with the pacing other professions can manage.

…..And we're pretty much done. Since Eles are nukers, they are easier to recalculate. Get a good bead on how much damage someone should be able to pull off, and apply that to the elementalist via armor penetration. Condense the amount of skills necessary for the nuker to nuke. Then adjust their pacing to ensure they can continue the fight and always have something to do. While we're on the subject, though, it would be nice to have a few enhancements to the class. Most of their skills do the exact same thing, and thus most are redundant. Giving them a few more skills with alternate functionality, a few more that encourage using two or more elements rather than a single one, and a few more that offer more tactical depth than just throwing nukes might be welcome.

Less immediate, but still relevant cases...

Paragons: Chants are inferior to Shouts. Like the pre-update Dervish, the Motigon suffers from the need to stop attacking to use buffs, and stop buffing to attack. Meanwhile, Imbagon play relies on shouts, which suffer no such drawbacks, to yield better results. Chants also have absolutely lousy targeting, with the paragon becoming less effective when the party is more diverse. Either improve motivation skills to allow the Paragon to contribute to any party instead of having to constantly change his bar if he's in caster, physical, or mixed groups (and no one uses signets enough for Lyrics to work, seriously), or convert chants into a different form, perhaps a toggled ability that provides a continuous bonus, thereby letting the Paragon help his friends while still hurting his foes.

Monks: Worst energy management of any caster, terrible smiting prayers, and the only primary attribute in the game which offers no benefit to any secondary skills. Nothing in the Monk's arsenal can compare to Spirit Siphon, Lyssa's Aura/Power Drain, Signet of Lost Souls, or the way Soul Reaping lets Necromancers go “Lol, energy”. If other caster classes can be perfectly viable without relying on secondaries just to get by, the Monk should be able to manage his own energy without using other professions as a crutch. And while they do fine in the support category, Monks have very little diversity; smiting prayers are practically worthless except for a single elite and get no benefit from Divine Favor, and their primary attribute can't boost their signets, their offense, or any secondary/PvE only skills. Improving them a little would give monk players other things they can do.

ensoriki · Feb 21, 2011, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Elementalist are nukers by who's definition?. Air magic doesn't nuke.
Monks can go a damn long way with the secondary profession system, wututalkinboutwillis?

Screw Elementalist, there is no "rework" that needs to be done. Just make intensity retarded, it's the clearest solution to everything. Players show time and time again they don't care if they have to rely on a skill, as long as it's good.

Rangers could use a little push.
Paragons could use some tweaking.
Assassins because I want them updated.

Voodoo Rage · Feb 21, 2011, 07:25 PM // 19:25

In the various subforums are pretty in depth discussions of most of these. While I am a big lover of the ranger, I do kind of accept the role of "Jack of all trades, master of none". I don't think we need to expect every single profession in this game to be massively OP just because another profession happens to be so too. I think ANET did the right thing with the dervish update trying their best to make (or at least attempt to make) the dervish the preferred profession to use a scythe and make the scythe the most logical weapon for the dervish. Right now it seems a lot of rangers are doing almost everything OTHER than being a ranger. I do like the "marked mechanic" idea.

This was covered pretty exhaustively in the ranger thread but I think nature rituals have to be massively overhauled. Traps should be more useful outside of specific farms. Pets; I disagree they are underpowered. Awkward, yes, but not underpowered. Conditions in PvE are fundamentally underpowered. They probably need to give traps and nature rituals the same treatment they did for the ritualists (fast cast time, more durable spirits, useful in combat). Pets (and melee heros/henchies in general) just need some improved AI. A few skills could use a buff to make the bow the no-brainer option for the ranger.

As far as ele's go, I really think the profession is fine EXCEPT in HM. As I posted before in THAT thread, making them more powerful in NORMAL MODE (which I assure you most people play) is just making them OP. I think the Intensity re-write was a failure. They need to go back to the drawing board and just add some sort of cracked armor element to that skill and it would probably be fine (without influencing monsters at all).

Paragons are actually pretty good, they are just kind of awkward and not very fun to play (IMO). A few tweaks could make them a more desirable profession.

Monks, I never played them. At least from dealing with my heroes, it does seem like I have to rely on non-monk skills to keep their energy up.

Lasai · Feb 21, 2011, 08:03 PM // 20:03

OP, why don't you shove Kierans gimmicky toolbar somewhere the sun never shines.

Skye Marin · Feb 21, 2011, 08:19 PM // 20:19

In regards to PvE: Rangers, Paragons, and Elementalists, in that order.

Ranger Buffs:

Barrage and Volley - No longer removes preparations.
Determined Shot - If Determined Shot hits, you strike for +5..20 damage and gain 4..6 energy. If this attack fails to hit, you gain an additional 4..6 energy.
Quick Shot - You shoot an arrow that moves twice as fast and strikes for +5..20 damage. Your damage is doubled if you strike a moving foe. If it hits, this skill recharges instantly.
Sundering / Penetrating Attack - Causes cracked armor against attacking foes.
Triple Shot - Lower Recharge to 5.

Paragon Buffs:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...date_-_Paragon

Summary:

AoE buff to Slayer's Spear
Good party damage buffs with Anthem of Envy
Strength of Honor-izing of "Find Their Weakness!" but for crits
fueling that with GftE!

Elementalist Buffs:

Intensity - Your next targeting elemental damage spell ignores armor against your target, and causes all foes nearby that target to take 40..50% of that damage. Lower recharge to 5.
Master of Magic - For 5..65 seconds, all of your elemental attributes are increased by +3..6 (maximum 15). You gain +2 energy regeneration. This skill ends if you use a non-Elementalist skill.

MithranArkanere · Feb 21, 2011, 08:21 PM // 20:21

There is no such thing as PvE balance. Balance is between two sides.

But if you as me about evening power between players so no one is desired less than the rest when forming parties, then I'd go with paragons, beast masters, smiters and elementalists.

Essence Snow · Feb 21, 2011, 08:28 PM // 20:28

I agree with the order of which prof needs changes...sorta

Ranger

Ele-Para (could go either way)

Monk

Rangers..yes they need rework b/c of things mentioned, but idk bout basing of Keirans skills.

Eles...would have been so simple...tying either intensity or ele lord to e storage and adding armor penetration...instead of the joke rework we got with the derv update

Paras...definately the motvation line and targeting of some chants/echos...use skill once and hope it last b/c u have no idea if it ends or not...umm yeah could use some changing

Monks.... yeah some energy issues but not to high on list of priorities.

Nyta · Feb 21, 2011, 08:47 PM // 20:47

For ele, just drop enemies' armor levels down to what they would be at level 20 and boost their health and/or give them regen to compensate. Attempting to address the problem through buffing the pve skills is a bad idea because not everyone has the campaigns those skills are in. And it ignores the fact that non-ele elemental skills will still be doing very little damage if the issue is only addressed for the ele.

Arutima · Feb 21, 2011, 08:55 PM // 20:55

there is this wonderful necromancer skill that causes aoe cracked armor. it is the reason why my ele never go ou without a curse necro in HM

Xenomortis · Feb 21, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

There is no such thing as PvE balance. Balance is between two sides.

PvE "balance" is not about the power of players versus the power of AI enemies (although that of course will factor into it). Nor is it just about the relative power of the professions.
Yet many seem to think so.

-Makai- · Feb 21, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Tweak shadow steps in PvE for those of us who want to play the Assassin as it was originally intended.

With the nerf to Asuran Scan, Rangers could use a buff.

Lastly, Motivation and Ele damage in HM could use a boost.

Malganis · Feb 21, 2011, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Air Magic ele's have several skills that do armor penetration, cracked armor and dazed condition, but my air ele still does 20's and 30's with a skill that says it does 41 damage with 25% armor penetration. I lead off with Shell Shock instead of Lightning Orb as SS uses less energy and casts faster. Then I hit them with Enervating Charge for the weakness and spam Lightning Javelin for the interrupt.

Ranger spirits definitely need a rework. Ritualist spirits either help friends or hinder foes, but not both. Ranger spirits affect both friends and foes with effects that you dont always want. Winter and Frozen Soil are probably the most used, and the only ones used. Equinox needs a buff in that it causes exhaustion for ALL spells cast by foes, and Famine should cause -1 energy as well as doing damage to foes that have 0 energy. Why is Lacerate an elite while Toxicity is not? They both do an extra -2 degen with a certain condition. Lacerate should cause bleeding on any foe who gets hit with physical damage (or piercing damage) when their health is less than 75% or so. Infuriating Heat needs a change too, why do Rangers care about adrenaline gain? Also, Expertise should affect ALL skills and spells a Ranger uses, including PvE skills and non-Ranger skills.

I'd like to see Divine Favor changed so ALL party members gain health with every Monk spell a Monk casts, something like twice their Divine Favor. That way Smiting Monks can contribute more to the party. Resto Ritualists should not be out-healing Monks in my opinion, either. Also, the PvE skill Selfless Spirit and the Divine Favor skill Divine Spirit should last much longer, at least 30 seconds and preferably 45 seconds with a 45 or 60 second recharge. Healer's Convenant needs to either dump the 25% less healing, or remove the upkeep cost. That change will help Monks with energy management.

jimbo32 · Feb 21, 2011, 09:31 PM // 21:31

I agree with the Ranger/HM Ele stuff (although I don't have an Ele). I'd been using a scythe build on my Ranger which I found to be a lot of fun. Now that that's been gimped by the change to the Derv skills, I'm not sure what I'll run when I play her.

As far as the Paragon goes, something should have been done about them *ages* ago. Although they're an interesting concept, they failed right from the design stage imo. They're the only class in the game that I'm aware of that essentially *requires* a three-way skill point split to be effective (Spear Mastery, Leadership for energy management, Com/Mot for shield).

In my opinion, Command should've been omitted, with the skills going to Motivation or Leadership as appropriate. Command req shields instead go to Leadership, so it's more like the way the Warrior was done (Str/Tac). They could've added other weapon attributes to compensate - maybe a Javelin line for ranged AoE and a shortspear for melee.

Obviously, none of that will happen at this stage. But there's no doubt that something should be done. The only genuinely viable build the Paragon has is boring as hell to play.

FoxBat · Feb 21, 2011, 09:34 PM // 21:34

How did we get around to monk's healing power or energy needing buffs? Is this what happens when you let Ether Renewal fester for months?

If a rit is outhealing a monk, its because the monk is terrible, and/or running a terrible bar. If an ele is outhealing a monk, it's because the ele is horribly broken, not the other way around.

Malganis · Feb 21, 2011, 09:39 PM // 21:39

I mention Rits outhealing a monk because almost all of the Necro healing builds are N/Rt, not N/Mo.

AndrewSX · Feb 21, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

For me, not necessary in this order...
-Eles(expecially in HM): damage is ridicoulous, and overall some skills and some mechanics could be reworked(wards, glyphs, PBAoE,...)
-Rangers: traps, spirits and pet are quite underpowered in pve...and the bow damage isn't that great.
-Shadow steps: not indispensable, but would be very appreciated.
-Paragons:here is needed just a little buff to some specific skills/attributes line(moti imo), not a huge rework.
-Smite monks:...well, apart some skills, the attribute line is quite meh.
Also..
-take care of dervish in pvp: i've heard that now dervs are very broken in pvp...i'm not a pvper, but i feel Anet should monitor the balance during next times...

-Fix meele heroes please....they really sucks.

Nyta · Feb 21, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malganis

I mention Rits outhealing a monk because almost all of the Necro healing builds are N/Rt, not N/Mo.

Necros go with rit heals only because the monk heals are designed assuming that they're powered by Divine Favor. Rit heals aren't. So, if monk heals healed as much as a rit heal even if they weren't being powered by Divine Favor, they'd be really ridiculous, especially when buffed by Healer's Boon or UA. Monk heals don't need a buff.

shoyon456 · Feb 21, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Hehehe, nothing. Been waiting on the Dervish update for over half a year and now that it's here I'm happy. Just wish I had more time these days to play and stuff left to do in GW.

Ugh · Feb 21, 2011, 10:16 PM // 22:16

For rangers I would:

Make bows not suck. I cringe everytime I see something like Called shot, Determined Shot, Focused Shot, Marauder's Shot, Punishing Shot... or almost any other bow attack. Anyways, multishotting is sort of a unique bow thing, so increase their multishotting ability with buffs to things like Triple Shot (5-7s recharge) and Splinter Shot (change to monster version). Duel purpose skills and a marking thing would be great, too.
Increase synergy with bows and pets. Strike as One sucks, so that could be made into a skill that affects both you and your pet. Make it make a pet cause x condition and the player cause y condition or deal +z damage to foes suffering from x when hitting with a bow. For example: Your pets attacks cause Cracked Armor for 1...7..8 seconds. Your bow attacks strike for +1...8..10 damage against foes suffering from Cracked Armor. Life steal from HaO could be reduced and given to the pet and the ranger's bow attacks. The health regen in NRA could be exchanged for something offense-based; Beast Mastery has enough defensive skills, and 25% IAS isn't very good by itself considering it forces you to bring a pet, is somewhat expensive, and it takes a PvE slot.
Give rituals shorter recharges and cast times. I'd go with 20-30s or so for the recharge and 1-2 seconds for the cast. Just enough to eliminate the need for summon spirits.
Make rituals affect things players have control over. Good example: EoE. If players can keep themselves alive, they won't take damage. Fantastic. Also, make rituals that synergize with things players use (i.e. make Primal Echos extend shout duration or reduce shout recharge or something), and stop making them counterproductive. Energy denial spirits, for example, are annoying in PvP and suicide in PvE, so get rid of them.
Make traps more potent. There are no good traps; Dust, Spike, and Smoke are okay, but not practical due to elite status or high cost. All other traps have bad damage, useless effects, or are conditional. Generally, they're pathetic for all aspects of the game. Just make them do useful things, and make those useful things feasible.
Alternatively, just reduce trap recharge for bar compression, and reduce cost so they can be spammed more practically to make up for their badness.

For eles I would:

Reduce the armor of things in HM; increase health appropriately to compensate.
Make attunements have short cast times in PvE.

For paras I would:

Give them skills that become more effective with less people around, so they can contribute in small groups. For example: Anthem of Flame. Chant. (5 seconds.) Party members in earshot inflict Burning condition (1...3...3 second[s]) with their attack skills. This ends after 1...7..8 attacks. Basically, give 'em buffs that are shared by all that are affected, so small groups, even though they have fewer affected, get more per person. In this example, a group of 4 could still get all the burning out of Anthem of Flame, they'd just have to make it happen in 5 seconds, so it would be slightly harder with a smaller group, but it would be more even then before. This would also allow paras to stop wasting physical buffs on casters and vice versa, and make them not have to tailor their builds to their groups to as great of a degree.
Give them buffs that they can drag around. Maybe. Like, a buff that lasts a few seconds and affects everyone in nearby range (a mobile Healing Spring, for example), so paras can be less stationary.
Give them buffs that affect the nearest x party members. So they can have more powerful skills that won't be OP because they can't affect infinity people. Movement, positioning, and thought instead of buffspam would make paras more interesting, I think.

For monks:
I guess a buff to that one PvE energy skill could be nice. I'm pretty sure Anet said they were working on smiters after dervs, but that was a long time ago, so I dunno.